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Don Pedro BD5-11
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Zombie Crackers Masters Boulder Dash Reply with quote

Arno wrote:
Did you re-use Sijben Soft's version of BD3, or a different game? The colours in Master's BD are almost equal to Sijben Soft's version, but not exactly...!
That's an interesting question. Especially as Masters Boulder Dash indeed uses the Microfun version of the BD1 engine (like BD3 does), while BD4-11 use the FSS version of the BD1 engine.
I wonder, what was the reason for that change? No One used the Microfun version throughout, until he continued with PLCK.
BD5 and 6 reused the BD1 colors (which seems logical considering the engine used). BD7-9 mostly seem to be a mix of BD1 colors and official BD3 colors, which seems odd. I'd like to hear the story behind those color decisions.
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Klaxer
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arno wrote:

- BD5 int4 could be easiest thinkable cave, if the time was set to 255 instead of 1 second! Or is there another way to make it easier?

Ha-ha-ha! It's was really fun and easy after all (phew!!!!) walktrough. Small joke from oldman-Pedro. Laughing
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Marto
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arno wrote:
RTADash wrote:
BD8, caves G and H; how do you do these? Confused


G) Kill the ghosts against the left amoeba, and enclose the amoebas by boulders and Rockford himself. Note BTW that the boulders must be placed diagonally, otherwise the amoeba has too much space to grow and will turn into boulders.

H) Release the ghost by pushing the boulders. Break through the piece of wall by dropping a boulder through the magic wall at exactly the right time, such that the firefly is killed when it's above the wall. The amoeba then is converted to diamond because the magic wall has been turned on. (This is a specific feature of the BD1 engine, which cannot be used (unfortunetely) in the Constr. Kit). However a good timing is required because if you act too quickly, the amoeba has grown too little and the amount of diamonds is insufficient. Note BTW that No One has made this cave easier by requiring less diamonds and shifting the wall 1 unit downwards.


I enjoyed both these caves. I like to the ones that rely on a bit of thought. I found G to be easily completed by enclosing the left amoeba only, letting the right one grow to smash a firefly. Then when I the fireflies are let out and wander the left side, the exit is free.

H looks difficult but if you lead the firefly around to the right of the magic wall without causing an infinite loop, it is easy. It becomes easier if a boulder is placed to the left of the wall you need to smash, since the firefly will want to turn anti-clockwise and hence sit there slightly longer. This makes the timing of the boulder drop not so specific.
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V-12/Tropyx
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm passing all BD from 1 to 11 (also with those ones mentioned in this thread) without trainer mode and I can confirm, all caves are possible to finish properly. Well, some of them may be quite difficult but they aren't impossible to pass Wink
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RaVeN72
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Zombie Crackers Masters Boulder Dash Reply with quote

LogicDeLuxe wrote:
Arno wrote:
Did you re-use Sijben Soft's version of BD3, or a different game? The colours in Master's BD are almost equal to Sijben Soft's version, but not exactly...!
That's an interesting question. Especially as Masters Boulder Dash indeed uses the Microfun version of the BD1 engine (like BD3 does), while BD4-11 use the FSS version of the BD1 engine.
I wonder, what was the reason for that change? No One used the Microfun version throughout, until he continued with PLCK.
BD5 and 6 reused the BD1 colors (which seems logical considering the engine used). BD7-9 mostly seem to be a mix of BD1 colors and official BD3 colors, which seems odd. I'd like to hear the story behind those color decisions.


Sorry to bump an old thread, but I must ask were the early no one/don pedro games games made before the release of PLCK????...if so what was the process for making these games???
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Zombie Crackers Masters Boulder Dash Reply with quote

RaVeN72 wrote:
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I must ask were the early no one/don pedro games games made before the release of PLCK????...if so what was the process for making these games???
No One is mocking at the PLCK in one of their intros. That was probably the time of its release or at least it was announced then.

What you do if you want to modify a game without an editor: You do some reverse engineering and some guesswork and start trying things out. An Action Replay cartridge is very suitable for this task.
I wouldn't be surprised if even Boulder Dash III was made that way, judging by the mess they did there.
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RaVeN72
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah...so a hex editor...must have been a real pain to achieve anything...makes those early games all the more amazing
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of my games are also made that way. While the PLCK already existed at the time I made them, I did it out of curiosity to find out what I could achieve with the BD1 engine, especially as it has some notable differences to PLCK.
Those games are Deluxe Caves 1, 2, 3 and 4, as well as Crazy Dream 3. All of them are available in the Game Base.
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RaVeN72
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LogicDeLuxe wrote:
Some of my games are also made that way. While the PLCK already existed at the time I made them, I did it out of curiosity to find out what I could achieve with the BD1 engine, especially as it has some notable differences to PLCK.
Those games are Deluxe Caves 1, 2, 3 and 4, as well as Crazy Dream 3. All of them are available in the Game Base.


Was any sort of editor developed by anyone back in the day for changing the data 'instructions' that draw the caves?
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaVeN72 wrote:
Was any sort of editor developed by anyone back in the day for changing the data 'instructions' that draw the caves?
Thinking of it, Rockford once mentioned a BASIC editor for BD2 to me, but it was not released.
I also suspect that No One had one for their later BD1 engine games, as their designs became more complex. They spaced the cave data equally in their later games, which certainly simplifies the handling of cave data (and also would simplify an editor). On the other hand, No One released quite a lot of tools, but no such an editor or packer for the BD1 engine, afaIk. Then again, such an editor was not involved in the trust conflict going on in the scene back then, so they might just have decided against a release to the public.
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking at the maps again and sitting before 10P without finding a solution idea. How can the amoeba be trapped into 95+ diamonds?!
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Last edited by Dustin on Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I figured out a solution now - the amoeba has indeed more space than I thought. At least in theory my solution works - in practice there's a big luck-dependance, though.
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just thought "let's try and revive this topic" because during the last weeks, I checked Don Pedro's games again and very intensely because I'm planning a remake of his caves with working 5L versions (I feel "qualified" for this after all my 5L-based games! Very Happy )

First of all I think that most of the negative feedback in this topic is due to the fact that about 2/3 of his caves really are little thought of and not much fun to play, which I unfortunately still think is true. So if one tries to play a whole Don Pedro game from A to P, it may happen quickly that one loses fun. That said, I think that among the remaining 1/3 of the caves, there are in fact quite a few masterpieces, at least if you take into account that his games were nearly the first fangames and so all his ideas were his own and not inspired by any other fangames/caves (despite a few caves where he clearly got inspired by BD1-3 caves).
So I want to make a little re-review of all of his caves, starting from the beginning!

I'm only referring to DP's originals, not No1's versions, and only to L1 because it's clear that he didn't care much about L2-5 (which he himself admitted already in this thread!)

Don Pedro 5
A - nice little idea with the magic wall. One has to take into account that Don Pedro couldn't make more objects than in BD-1, which he also stated in this thread. So in cave A, he could only make 2 objects apart from in - and outbox, and w.r.t. this restriction, it's quite a nice idea i.m.o. Grade 3/5.

B - What I especially did not like earlier when playing Don Pedro's caves was the fact that very often, he has fireflies surrounded by dirt which are dangerous to release, just as here. Meanwhile I don't find this so severe anymore, as advanced players know a few tricks how to do this best, but I think that for beginning boulder dashers, this might well be a frustrating factor. Also this is kinda explained by the fact that Don Pedro was restricted in terms of cave objects. This cave is the first cave with vertical explosions, which brings it above average in my view - 3/5.

C - As BD1-C had no regular objects other than in- and outbox, DP was forced to make all his C-caves purely randomly! Here he just changed walls into boulders, which is not so creative, so below average IMO - 2/5.

D - Small, but very interesting and funny cave! I had and have fun trying to get as many diamonds as possible - I'm at 18 meanwhile and don't see a way to get more. Perfect for a 5L remake! 4/5.

Int1 - Not very creative and releasing the BF at quick speed with 1 try only - nah, I don't like it. 1/5.

E - Very easy to playand not much creativity visible here, but I still think it's kinda fun to play. Probably the idea is roughly inspired by BD1-J, because also here, a firefly should somehow be deflected from following Rockford into the spiral. 2/5.

F - Not my taste. Both the amoeba conversion and the boulder-pushing are potential luck factors and if you can't do it just because of bad luck, it's always frustrating. Still, the usage of the amoeba was principally new and creative, which makes me give this at least 2/5.

G - A rather strange cave IMO. Releasing all fireflies simultaneousely makes the wall blasting harder than possibly expected. After this, depending on where you blasted it, the amoeba might still be in the way, demanding a BD2-D like solution. What reduces the fun to me is the fact that the fireflies can't be released in smaller portions, which makes me rate it below average - 2/5.

H - Cleary BD2-B based idea, but with "reverse silos", so you have to dig into the boulder-diamond-mix to a certain depth to get your 45 diamonds - or test out how big you can let the amoeba grow so that it still converts into diamonds! Nice to play - 3/5.

Int2 - I find this very slightly better than the first int, but still I don't think it's much fun to play because of the precision you need at high speed. 2/5.

I - The general concept of covering the lower magic wall would have been interesting if it was new, but as it is, it just looks to me like a boring and monotorious remake of BD1-Int4. Just 1/5.

J - I like the symmetric, well-designed map and in general I think this is a much better realization of the "absorbing MW" concept than the previous cave. A slight minus are the trapped fireflies which I didn't like to release earlier. 3/5.

K - Not spectacular, but fun to play to me and I especially like it because once again, it's a perfect cave for a 5L version by altering the random seed! 4/5.

L - I remember that in the past, I didn't like this one much because I always ran into a firefly when I tried to move from room to room to get diamonds! Today I think it's quite a nice challenge and also here, the random seed makes a significant difference because of the different number of fireflies that survive at the beginning! 3/5.

Int3 - It can be fun to collect so many diamonds, and getting rid of the fireflies also demands at least a bit of care, but still I find this int a bit boring and not too interesting - 2/5.

M - A funny little chaos cave! Also here, I didn't like releasing the butterflies in the past, but apart from that, you can have fun with the butterflies and even try to trap the amoeba to create lots of bonus diamonds. Also the finish is not so trivial when some butterflies might still surround the exit! 3/5.

N - Oof! Releasing six groups of flies by snapping next to them and then avoiding them in narrow space - this alone is enough to make me hate this cave earlier and still dislike it now. Also I don't see a clear concept in this cave. 2/5.

O - This one may partly have been inspired by BD2-K. I don't like the beginning much where I have to hide behind the diamond and then wait endlessly for an opportunity to break out. Also I don't see much creativity here. 2/5.

P - This one has a remarkable design and also a good puzzle element because 1 diamond seems to be missing! Having figured that out, the cave becomes very playable and enjoyable, though it might be a little bit nasty that with the original BD-1 engine, the boulder conversion has to be made so carefully and slowly. Still, it's clearly above average IMO - 4/5!

Int4 - Short int, short comment - 3/5 for this funny realization of no idea Very Happy
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Arno
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice review of an old classic!

I'm still wondering why only in cave I the colours deviate from BD1... Wink
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx for the review of the review, Arno! Very Happy
I forgot to give an overall conclusion of DP5 - my score adds u to 51/100 or 51%. Given it is one of the first fangames, I think this is quite good!

Don Pedro 6

A - Even given the fact that DP only had two regular objects to use for cave A, I don't think they're placed any creative/neatly. 2/5.

B -Frank and Franka's birth! Just let this cave run for a few seconds and see what happens! It looks like DP discovered this by accident and then he didn't change anything in order not to break this formation! Unfortunately, this cave doesn't look very interesting otherwise - the only thing you have to care about is that the falling diamonds should not crush Frank - or is it Franka? - who moves along the cave border after the FnF has reached the left edge. Still, as a DFF fan, I just have to give this cave 4/5 despite its poor gameplay!

C - even though Don Pedro couldn't make any regular objects in his C-caves, he could have been more creative that this, which he proved in his next games! 2/5.

D - No. Just no. Just pointless nonsense with way too many BFs. 1/5.

Int1 - Nice idea that you have to let the upper boulder fall from the lower one to get all nine diamonds. Still, I don't like the trapped BF, especially at that high int-speed. 2/5.

E - nothing special going on, plus an unfair spot because releasing the left fireflies is a 50/50 scenario - with bad luck RF cannot escape after releasing those fireflies. I'm sure Don Pedro wasn't aware of this, but still it tends to be frustrating. 1/5.

F - out of Don Pedro's "firefly mass" F-caves, I like this one best! Small but nice challenge with the 18 fireflies at the start, which nicely introduce the cave theme - lots of fireflies to dodge! The blocked exit also fits into this theme, also the blocked area under the magic wall. Strange is the fact that 12 diamonds are guarded by 4 fireflies but 4 diamonds are guarded by 8... overall I think that this cave has a clear theme and is not "over-extended" in terms of the number of fireflies. Quite above average IMO - 3/5.

G - In contrast, I find this one ugly. It starts very difficult with the fireflies you have to escape in such a narrow space. And when you've finally done it, the rest is rather boring - wait for the amoeba, blast a wall, collect way too many diamonds and exit. For this, the lower right space area has no meaning at all. One might argue that there's at least a little bonus diamond challenge if you release the amoeba earlier and then trap it into a bigger area, but nah - this doesn't revalue this bad cave at all IMO - 1/5.

H - Just a much less instructive continuation of the cave F theme. Pointlessly placed diamonds, and nothing new compared with F. 1/5 again.

Int2 - I like this one! In the context of caves E-H, it's way more than enough fireflies by now, but regarded as a single challenge, I find it quite interesting though hard at high speed. Another personal plus from me is the beautful, symmetric design! Clearly above average, though on the downside we have some boredom collecting the diamonds. 4/5.

I - An obvious BD3-H remake. I think this is one of the best BD3 caves, but this remake doesn't include anything new - just added one more magic wall somewhere and that's it. 2/5.

J - Cool idea! This may well be the first Boulderdash "troll cave" which willingly uses the fact that magic walls can't be distingusihed from normal walls until they activate. So the player might desperately try to catch the upper left diamond, which I think is impossible to achieve. (So if it should indeed be possible with some tricky trick, at least it demands better skills than those of a 35-year-experience Boulderdasher Cool ) And then they may accidently discover the "melodical solution"! Nothing similar can be seen in the previous BD games, so a big plus for the innovation! For me personally, slight minusses are the fact that there are so many fireflies again which need to be snapped free, plus the relatively few magic walls, which might be frustrating if you just don't discover them. This makes 4/5 from me with increasing tendency. So let's say 4.5/5 Very Happy

K - Just explosions. Seen often enough by now. One idea is slightly innovative here - the fact that five fireflies wouldn't "normally" be enough so you have to save one with an explosion at the right place so that you get access to 2 diamond cages with only 1 explosion. This is somewhat "hidden" by the placement of the 4 boulders, which is thereby another slight "troll" Very Happy Also, the exit must be reached with only 2 explosions instead of 3. All this is nice, but otherwise the cave is a bit boring and "empty" in the middle, which makes it hard for me to value it above average. But ok, he did have an innovative idea and also the solution is not too difficult to discover, so 3/5.

L - This one has a neat design and also acceptable gameplay, though the fact that the fireflies can only be released in big portions makes the explosions tricky in narrow space - there will almost always be some spinning flies at narrow passages, which I think is quite annoying for non-cavescan order - researchers. Very Happy The magic walls are somewhat hidden again, but ok, there are no diamonds and one of the two diagonal brick walls has no obvious sense, so what...? Very Happy The other magic wall is harder to discover, but also not necessary and nice for bonus diamonds, I think. Overall a challenging, above average cave IMO - 3/5.

Int3 - The "nice-realization-of-no-idea-joker" has already been used in Don Pedro 5, Int4, so this time really 1/5...

- t.b.c. -
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